Randy Oliver and Walter Haefeker On The Organic View Radio Show hosted by June Stoyer

A Discussion About Neonicotinoids And Bee Losses

A Multibillion Dollar Buzzness

Neonicotinoid pesticides are a key concern in the controversial debate as to whether or not they are the cause for the world’s rapidly declining pollinator population. Neonicotinoids have a direct impact on agriculture for many reasons. By design, although they were created to kill insects, honeybees, which are not predatory insects for the plants treated with Neonicotinoid applications, have died from exposure. Often, migratory commercial beekeepers whose honeybees are responsible for pollinating many of the foods we eat are unable to recover from such exposure. Be that as it may, even from a financial perspective, the commercial beekeepers cannot afford to continue to sustain additional bee losses and are scrambling to keep their existing hives alive and healthy.  The financial impact is equally as dire for farmers who rely upon the commercial beekeepers to pollinate key agricultural crops.

Almonds are a key crop which rely upon honeybees for pollination.

Photo: The Almond Board of California

Last year, according to statistics from beekeeping groups, the United States lost up to 70% of its commercial honeybees even though the antiquated statistics from agency officials claim an estimate loss of 30%. This number continues to decline as one commercial beekeeping operation closes after another.

Commercial Beekeeper, Jim Doan is now out of business due to pesticide exposure

Commercial Beekeeper, Jim Doan is now out of business due to pesticide exposure.

Regardless of  the public outrage across the globe, the agrichemical industry is not willing to shut down production of these pesticides (which subsequently generate billions of dollars in revenue) without a fight. As of December 1, 2013, the European Commission, restricted the use of three neonicotinoids: clothianidin, imidacloprid and thiamethoxam, for a period of two years. According to a press release issued by Pan-Europe, the Swiss and German chemical producers have decided to sue the European Commission in court over the ban imposed on thiamethoxam, clothianidin and imidacloprid.

Dead bees found after corn planting in neighboring field.

Photo courtesy of beekeeper, Steve Ellis, whose bees were found after a corn planting in a neighboring field.

Two Bee Experts, Two Opinions, One Dying Bee Population!

In this segment of The Organic View Radio Show, June Stoyer will host an in-depth discussion about neonicotinoids with Randy Oliver, a biologist and owner of ScientificBeekeeping.com and Walter Haefeker, President of the European Professional Beekeepers Association, Member of the Board of Directors German Professional Beekeepers Association.

Listen To The Interview:
Please click the video below or listen to the audio by clicking the play button on either option.

Randy Oliver and Walter Haefeker On The Organic View Radio Show hosted by June Stoyer





The Organic View
The Organic View
A Discussion About Neonicotinoids And Bee Losses

65 thoughts on “A Discussion About Neonicotinoids And Bee Losses

  1. Randy said on 33.45 “when you are going down to the bottom line, most iINTENSE USE of neonicotinoid use ,that is in the cornbelt, especially in Iowa, corn or soybeans etc. the beekeepers are TRIVING. No problems there.

    Honey Bee Colony Losses in the U.S., Winter 2010-2011

    “”Iowa Experience According to Andrew Joseph, State Apiarist with the Iowa Department of Agriculture and Land Stewardship, “Compared to the national average, Iowa beekeepers have experienced a higher percentage of losses, with preliminary estimates of winter losses from this past winter at 50 – 55%. While this is better than the previous winter, it is still unsustainable for the beekeeping industry.”

    “”It is important to note that this survey only reports on losses that occur during the winter and does not capture the colony losses that occur throughout the summer. Preliminary data from other survey efforts suggest that these “summer losses” can also be significant.””


    April 18, 2013 5:00 am • By Zoe Martin Iowa Farmer Today

    Colony collapse continues to threaten beekeepers

    OWA CITY — Fewer bees are emerging from Dave Irvin’s hives this spring. The president of the East Central Iowa Beekeepers Association lost 50 percent of his colony this past winter.These losses are part of worldwide issues, including colony collapse disorder (CCD), that have been well-documented because of the profits at stake.

    Rogers said mites don’t have to be present in a hive to cause damage. They also transfer viruses to the bees. Irvin has dealt with the pest.“Everybody’s got them,” he said. “We can’t get rid of them, but we can control them.”

    At 52.00 again, they are doing it, year after year after year without losses ???

    Again at 56.00. the cornstates. They are doing very well there. ???

    • I also think it’s worth considering what Bayer’s own literature says about how their products kill insects, then comparing it identified effects on bees:

      Then again, I think patents for pesticides tell us a lot about the potential danger to non-target insects

    • Iowa lost anywhere from 65 to 70% of their bee colonies this year. Randy Oliver is a corporate puppet and a phony!

  2. This was a very long but very informative interview which demonstrates the manipulative tactics as demonstrated by a bee expert who seems to be more of a cheerleader for Bayer. I found it immensely disturbing that he was so defensive over a company responsible for creating the chemicals used on millions of people during the Holocaust.

    Your show is the only one that I have found that does not involve drama, bias and all of the usual rhetoric. It is refreshing and you have excellent guests. Thank you for all of your hard work and effort.

  3. What kind of expert is this Randy Oliver? The German guy had a better pronunciation and it isn’t even his native tongue. It really took away from any credibility that he could have claimed to have had because an expert would have a proper command of the English language. Either he was ill prepared or he just doesn’t know what he is talking about. Bee expert? I think not!

  4. I actually listened to the very end because I could not believe how much crap could come out of someone’s mouth. Randy Oliver was someone I respected. Now I can see that he has really no idea what he is talking about when it comes to the effects of neonicotinoids. Perhaps he should stick to what he knows and not pretend that he is an expert on everything. He actually sounded like one of the chemical salesmen he said he can’t stand.

        • You don’t need to be like that QdS. Randy is a highly sought after speaker. This just didn’t seem to be a good topic for him.

          • Well, “Brenda” if he is a self-declared authority on neonicotinoids and travels all over the world to spread his spoon-fed rhetoric to ignorant and easily duped people, then he should know what he is talking about.

            Anyone who is an expert on a subject must talk about that subject quite a bit. The fact that he not once pronounced neonoctinoids properly is a huge red flag. Wake up, Brenda, you’re not in Kansas anymore. Oh, that’s right, the bees are “fine” there according to Randy. Get real!

        • I think it’s funny that some of you are on the one hand accusing Randy of working for Bayer while faulting him for not being able to pronounce the company’s product line! And really, I don’t think the host every pronounced it right either!
          I think Randy did sound a bit nervous; maybe he’s just not used to the radio thing. But he’s a great speaker in person, and he really is an expert in this field. Unlike most of the folks researching neonics and bees, Randy is studying working beehives under actual field conditions. Anyone can kill bees in a lab with pesticides, but that doesn’t mean they’re encountering those levels of poison in their day-to-day lives.

          • Who accused him of working for Bayer? Do you have a guilty conscience? Stop projecting. The host did pronounce the word properly and there was only one time when Walter Hafeker stumbled. Oliver is the expert here and never once pronounced it. I WAS his loyal fan and would get into it with a lot of other people in his defense because I too, thought he was all that.

            Clearly, you are grasping at straws. Give it up already. Oliver made a butt out of himself. His own words destroyed his credibility.

  5. The decision was NOT based upon politics. It was political as to why the major countries initially did not support the ban but it was indeed based upon the science.

  6. Good interview, June but I thought it could have had a little more oomph to it. Perhaps I just hate paid reps pretending to know something.

  7. Great interview. In the spirit of Ed Murrow… Randy Oliver, like McCarthy, in his own words, loses all credibility, showing his ignorance and complacency with Agribiz. What a schill and a hack!

  8. Mr Randy Oliver has not got a clue about the insidious neonicotimoids as he calls them. These chemicals pollute the environment wherever they are used, they are highly persistent in soil, aquatic sediments and water, and they are exceptionally toxic to arthropods, particularly upon longer term exposure. The infinitesimal concentrations in the envrionment are an immense threat to invertebrates and all the species that depend on invertebrates. Because of their widespread use the neonics may break the food chain on which we all depend. Oliver is dangerous because he sounds plausible to the ignorant while an environmental disaster is unfolding before our eyes

  9. Thank you for this discussion. I had heard about neonicotinoids but didn’t quite understand the debate until I saw a link to this article and listened to the discussion. I didn’t think this interview was very long at all and would have listened to even more questions. I am going to check out your other interviews so I can understand everything better. It was very well done and interesting.

  10. I enjoyed the banter and learned a lot from this interview about how bad this situation is in America if this is what is representing the beekeeping community there.
    #1. If neonicotinoids were so hard to pronounce, why didn’t Randy Oliver simply refer to them as neonics. It is a hard word but I suppose if you are an expert, or rather, calling yourself one, you should be familiar with the proper pronunciation. You know it is bad when a so-called scientist can’t pronounce something. Is this man an actual scientist? I did not see that he possesses a PhD. Furthermore, I could not find any of his research anywhere. Or is he another hobbyist scientist? Everyone wants to be Einstein these days!
    #2 If Randy is “organic” why is he defending the chemical companies so much as well as those employed by them?
    #3 He stated that he read “all of the science”? What science did he read? There is so much out there that proves the impact of these pesticides. What is he thinking?
    #4 He is dead wrong about the bee losses in the corn belt. I don’t know where he was “on the ground” but it was clearly a bogus statement. If he is going to make such a statement, he should have been able to state names, places and dates to prove it. It was a very weak statement and clearly proved to me that he embellished. Science is based upon fact, not lies.
    #5 Walter presented some good points but seemed to be a bit soft for someone with his background. I have heard some of his other interviews on your show and he has been more forceful. Overall, he did answer the questions adequately.

    • If you peruse Randy’s website scientificbeekeeping.com you’ll find lots of backup material. He writes a regular column for American Bee Journal and it’s always loaded with footnotes backing up his research. His point is not that neonics are harmless, just that they are not primarily what’s killing the bees (believe me, they are WAY down the list, and every survey of American beekeepers shows that), and if you ban them, farmers will just go back to the worse chemicals that they replaced.

      • I have been following him and also thought he was someone who appeared to be knowledgeable. This interview made me realize that he is just like everyone else that is trying to cash in and be in the spotlight for his knowledge.The fact that he runs scientificbeekeeping.com does not qualify him to be an expert in toxicology. Sorry, Eugene, but your argument is weak.

        • I’m sorry, Queen, but your comments just do not add up. You claim to have admired Randy Oliver for years (when you apparently were one of those “ignorant and easily duped people” like Brenda and me), but one interview causes you to trash his credentials and accuse him of opposing neonics as a way of “cashing in”? You say he has no credibility because he’s not a Ph.D, but you ignore that fact that neither is Walter Hefeker. In fact, you tend to disparage the credentials of everyone who disagrees with you, while declining to use your real name. (I know that because there’s no Ph.D after it!) I guess like many internet flamethrowers you find it easier to insult people from behind a wall of anonymity. I went back and re-read all your comments and the only argument you’ve put forward at all has been that Randy can’t pronounce a 7-syllable word. What’s your Ph.D in, speech therapy?

  11. I question whether those that are hating on Randy Oliver have followed his work in the past which he publishes on his website

    See here for a great synopsis of last winter’s bee losses:

    Randy is playing the role as a scientist in attempting to determine cause and effect, this does not make him a “schill” or “hack” or paid rep or whatever you want to call him. Correlation does not prove causation–just because the application of neonics has coincided with the death of bees does not prove that it has killed the bees.

    Randy knows arguably more than just about anyone on the topic of beekeeping, and he has been a huge asset to beekeepers in our country. The message here was entirely consistent with everything else that he has published.

    • Dan, Randy Oliver cannot profess to be a toxicologist, but he is talking about neonics as if he were. Many toxicologists are deeply concerned about the environmental impact of neonics, and the evidence they have reported makes a compelling case for a total ban of these insidious chemicals

        • The American Bird Conservancy (ABC), in comments submitted to EPA, stated that preliminary results of a study it is conducting show that EPA is underestimating the aquatic toxicity to birds and other wildlife of the neonicotinoids based on preliminary research results conducted at Carleton U. by Pierre Mineau, an environmental toxicologist with Environment Canada and a Carleton U. adjunct faculty member in Ottawa, ON. ABC is preparing a comprehensive review of the neonicotinoids’ effects on birds and including recommendations to EPA on how to better assess those chemicals’ risks. The review is expected to be completed by February. If adopted by EPA, the study’s recommendations would serve as yet another change to the agency’s ecological risk assessments for the neonicotinoids.

          Neonicotinoids have come under scrutiny in the United States and abroad after being linked to declines in bee and pollinator health, but their alleged avian toxicity has not received public attention. EPA already is planning to update its current risk assessment for pollinators with a new quantitative, tiered approach that could result in more conservative risk estimates for a wide range of pesticides. ABC is waiting for EPA to release records, which it sought in October through a Freedom of Information Act request, on the avian acute, sub-acute and reproductive studies submitted during the registration of the seven neonicotinoids.
          A University of Saskatchewan biologist says many wetlands across the Prairies are being contaminated by a relatively new pesticide that is threatening the ecosystem. Christy Morrissey says that over the past few years neonicotinoids have been used increasingly on crops in Western Canada and the chemical is making its way into wetlands, potentially having a devastating “domino effect” on insects and the birds that rely on them. Morrissey is just a year and a half into a four-year study, but she’s alarmed by what she’s finding. “This is huge” Morrissey said. “The impact on biodiversity could be probably bigger than we’ve ever seen before if we keep going at this rate.”

        • Further to my previous note, the neonics have been demonstrated to cause environmental pollution in the playa wetlands within the Southern High Plains, in the Central Valley of California, in the wetlands of the Canadian prairies, an in a large part of my native country Holland. I didn’t hear Mr Oliver refer to this pollution, but believe me, it is an environmental disaster if ever there was one. The neonics will kill billions of non-target invertebrates for years to come, and deprive many species of an essential food source. It should not come as a surprise that bats, hedgehogs, frogs, freshwater fish and many birds are in steep decline.

    • I have followed Randy for quite some time. I always held him in high regard but this subject was NOT his forte. Your attack on me is “hateful”. FYI, I am not “hating on” him to use your slangy term, when in reality, I expressed my opinion that he clearly demonstrated that this is one area he should not have spoken about it as though he were an expert. If I was “hating on him” I would have made it personal. This was about his lack of knowledge about neonicotinoids, lack of knowledge about what is going on with beekeepers in the corn belt, lack of knowledge when it comes to the EU ban, lack of knowledge when it comes to organic and overall complete inability to pronounce the word neonicotinoid, which for an “expert” should be a breeze. So, unless he is your kid, your daddy or your lover, it makes no sense why you are pulling the “hating on him” card. Spare me. Clearly, you must be another “hobbyist scientist” that didn’t pay the money or have the desire to put in the time and work to get a doctorate. When you get one, then perhaps, I’ll take what you are saying to be of any credence. You have now further made it clear that perhaps I should not have been such a supporter of his work all of these years. I read the posts. I see what people are saying. Clearly, I drank the Randy Oliver Kool-Aid but thanks to you, Dan, I won’t anymore!

  12. When there are massive losses across the globe with all pollinators, the chemicals should always be the first to be eliminated. This is a crisis. I think neonicotinoids should be completely eliminated. This is just sheer madness.

  13. I thought this was a very informative interview but if and when the EPA ever does something, remains to be seen. It will be interesting to see what happens in the United States.

  14. 41.07 “We need to get away from this distraction (neonicotinoids)”

    Exactly which distraction does Oliver refer to? The distraction that is making Bayer loads of money or the distraction that the EPA continues to create distractions? I think people that promote neonicotinoids as not having an impact need to be educated. This is about money, nothing more.

    • The distraction is the use of honeybees as a pawn in people’s fight against the pesticid du jour, while ignoring the real threats to bees, primarily varroa mites and the viruses they vector.

      • I gather you and Randy attended the same primary school. He can’t pronounce neonicotinoids and you can’t spell “pesticide”. The distraction is people like you who mislead others.

      • “The distraction is the use of honeybees as a pawn in people’s fight against the pesticid du jour, while ignoring the real threats to bees, primarily varroa mites and the viruses they vector”.Now thats ignorance.

  15. R. Oliver. is a very great scientist’/researcher I think. He is studying the neonicotimoids for a long time.

    Here are some important findings from him. Extinction of the honey bee 2011/2012 (?) Randy Oliver ; “At this time, it appears to me that the neonicotinoid insecticides are a step forward in the transition from the nasty organochlorines, organophosphates, and carbamates toward more environmentally-friendly pest control products”” Neonicotinoids: Trying To Make Sense of the Science First published in: American Bee Journal, August, 2012 Randy Oliver ” As I reported in my last article, many beekeepers feel strongly that the widespread use of the neonicotinoid insecticides has been a good thing … R.O.:” To date, no independent investigatory body has been able to confirm that the neonics are responsible for large-scale colony mortality ” R.O.; ” Chronic toxicity: Tennekes (2010a, b)—I discussed the paper and his alarming book at length with Dr. Tennekes. He points out legitimate concerns about high levels of residues in surface waters; however, the applicability of the Druckrey–Küpfmüller equation does not stand up to scrutiny, nor does his bird data” R.O.:” Bumblebees: Whitehorn (2012) found that bumblebee colonies fed realistic doses of imidacloprid gained less weight and produced fewer queens. This finding is of great interest, since solitary- and bumblebee colonies are more likely to be affected by pesticides than would be honey bees (due to the population reserve in the honey bee colony). This is of special concern, since native pollinators are already suffering greatly from habitat disturbance and introduced pathogens …” R.o.: ” Homing ability: Henry (2012) glued RFID chips to foragers, fed them a substantial dose of thiamethoxam, released them up to a km away from their hives and recorded whether they made their way home. They then calculated that colonies should crash due to loss of foragers—a result not substantiated in, say, canola fields” R.O.: “Other studies: I could fill the pages of this magazine several times over with my notes on hundreds of studies and my correspondence with various researchers, as I’ve really been trying to make sense of the neonicotinoids. I wish that I could give you cut and dried answers, but the science is not yet there. I’ll continue my analysis in the next issue…” Neonicotinoids: Trying To Make Sense of the Science – Part 2 First published in: American Bee Journal, September, 2012 R.O.; ” I fully expected to be excoriated by the anti-neonicotinoid True Believers. But to my great surprise, I was instead deluged by letters of support from beekeepers and researchers worldwide! A few examples:“I’m an amateur beekeeper in France and I want to tell you that I strongly believe that CCD is not caused by pesticides. Like you, I’d like to find the culprit but so far it remains a mystery.”“I liked your article because here in Germany we are facing a hard discussion with bee keepers and other organizations regarding neonicotinoids and feel similar as you that often any scientific idea is missing and that it is a political mission,” from a researcher at the major agricultural science institute.“Likewise in USA, in Europe the discussion is more and more polarized, and in the hands of activists rather than scientists,” a bee researcher from the Netherlands.Thanks, Randy, for acting as a mythbuster,” from a beekeeper from the Corn Belt. R.O.:”in my usual manner I began to investigate the subject deeply.Boy, was I in for an education! I read the literature from both sides of the pesticide debate, and got to know the principal players—the beekeeper anti-neonic advocates (who I fully respect), bee researchers, ecotoxicologists, farmers, and scientists from the chemical companies and the EPA. I soon found out who I could trust for accurate information, and who was so biased that I had to take anything they said with a grain of salt. I had thought that I knew something about pesticides; but in reality, how little I knew!” R.O.: “Yes, you understood him–a low dose of neonic may help bees to learn!” R.O.:”The social behavior he refers to is grooming, by which termites clean fungal spores off their bodies to prevent infection. Since grooming does not appear to be critical for bee defense against the most common pathogens, I find it difficult to extrapolate the action of imidacloprid against termites to bees”” R.O.; “The same thing happens with nicotine, and with the neonicotinoids in bees. Suchail 10, 11 found that ingested imidacloprid is rapidly passed to the bee’s rectum and excreted or degraded within hours. Very little makes it into the blood or rest of the body. Only about 5% is absorbed into the brain or flight muscles, where it is converted to the more toxic olefin metabolite, which then disappears within a day. Although the metabolite is more toxic on a dosage basis, understand that little of it actually formed.” R.O.:”This is the main problem with the hypothesis of Dr. Henk Tennekes 12, whose widely-cited publications attempt to make a case for the application the Druckrey–Küpfmüller equation for chronic toxicity to the neonics. I’ve corresponded at length with Dr. Tennekes, and asked him to explain why the neonics, which are also rapidly degraded by the bee, would have any more chronic toxicity than nicotine would to a human smoker. There is enough nicotine in a pack of cigarettes to easily kill a human, yet no one dies from nicotine toxicity (I watched in perverse horror as my high school biology teacher injected a rat with nicotine—its death was not a pretty sight). The point is, that nicotine and neonics appear to be so rapidly metabolized, that there is no buildup in the body (as there is in the case of DDT), the binding to the nerve receptors is reversible and insects recover fully, 13 and there is generally no increased mortality due to low-level chronic exposure.Indeed, a number of studies have found that exposure to low doses of imidacloprid resulted in foragers being more active and carrying more pollen! 14 Some plants secrete nicotine or caffeine in their nectar; recent research 15 suggests that bees prefer a bit of stimulant “buzz” and are able to accurately self dose—avoiding syrup spiked to toxic levels.” R.O.: “This is the main problem with the hypothesis of Dr. Henk Tennekes 12, whose widely-cited publications attempt to make a case for the application the Druckrey–Küpfmüller equation for chronic toxicity to the neonics. I’ve corresponded at length with Dr. Tennekes, and asked him to explain why the neonics, which are also rapidly degraded by the bee, would have any more chronic toxicity than nicotine would to a human smoker. There is enough nicotine in a pack of cigarettes to easily kill a human, yet no one dies from nicotine toxicity (I watched in perverse horror as my high school biology teacher injected a rat with nicotine—its death was not a pretty sight). The point is, that nicotine and neonics appear to be so rapidly metabolized, that there is no buildup in the body (as there is in the case of DDT), the binding to the nerve receptors is reversible and insects recover fully, 13 and there is generally no increased mortality due to low-level chronic exposure.Indeed, a number of studies have found that exposure to low doses of imidacloprid resulted in foragers being more active and carrying more pollen! 14 Some plants secrete nicotine or caffeine in their nectar; recent research 15 suggests that bees prefer a bit of stimulant “buzz” and are able to accurately self dose—avoiding syrup spiked to toxic levels. R.O.; “Bottom line: Any number of scientists have diligently tried to find any sorts of sublethal effects of neonics on bees, but have failed to demonstrate adverse effects at the colony level at doses produced by seed treatments.” R.O.:” Effect Upon BroodThe surprising thing here is that bee larvae appear to be essentially immune to the effects of neonics!” R.O.: ” Stoner 21 found that at allowed label rates for squash, neonic residues in nectar or pollen could push into the low range of observable behavioral effects. Such effects would likely only be serious to honey bees should lack of alternative forage be available. However, this would be different for the specialized native squash bees: “squash bees are specialists on Cucurbita, feeding their larvae exclusively on Cucurbita pollen, and also build their nests in soil, often directly beneath squash and pumpkin vines, so they could have much more exposure to the soil-applied insecticides used on these crops.” R.O.:”Beekeepers in France emphatically blamed Gaucho seed treatment of sunflowers for colony losses. Bonmatin 23 (clearly on a mission against imidacloprid) found that sunflowers could recover imidacloprid from the soil following crops treated the previous year, and that the plants concentrated the residues in the flower head tissue (although he did not analyze nectar)” R.O.:”In Argentina, Stadler 24 placed hives in the center of large fields of flowering sunflowers from seed treated again at a higher rate than the U.S. label, and confirmed that at least 20% of the pollen in the combs was sunflower, and that the colonies had stored sunflower honey. They could not detect residues of imidacloprid in the pollen, and found that the colonies in the treated field actually performed better than in the untreated! They then moved the hives to natural pasture, and checked them again after 7 months, and found no differences between the groups.So I don’t understand the videos I’ve seen of trembling or lethargic bees on sunflower blossoms in France.” R.O.: “Buildup in Soil. “In some clay soils residues of the neonicotinoids bond tightly to soil particles and may degrade slowly. However, the question is whether the roots of subsequently planted crops are able to absorb them (a Bayer rep pointed out to me that if they did, the farmer wouldn’t need to pay for seed treatment the next year). R.O.: ” The seed treatments appear to be more environmentally friendly to birds (who learn to avoid the seeds) and mammals than the insecticides that they replace ” R.O.:”Every claim that neonics are causing serious bee mortality is unsupported supposition, not backed by any concrete evidence ” R.O.;”The French Food Safety Agency conducted a thorough review of all suspected causes of colony mortality in Europe. They arrived at the politically unpopular finding that “The investigations and field work conducted to date do not lead to any conclusion that pesticides are a major cause of die-off of bee colonies in France.” R.O.:”Cresswell (2011) A meta-analysis of experiments testing the effects of a neonicotinoid insecticide (imidacloprid) on honey bees. in reviewing 14 studies, estimated that “dietary imidacloprid at field-realistic levels in nectar will have no lethal effects, but will reduce expected performance in honey bees by between 6 and 20%.” R.O.;” I would prefer that you read the studies yourself, and then form your own opinions, but in reality I don’t expect you to read the hundreds of studies that I’ve read. It’s likely that most of you won’t even bother to read the reviews above!” R.O.: “Summary: The consensus opinion of the comprehensive reviews above, as well as of the vast majority of bee researchers that I’ve spoken with, mirrors Blacquière’s conclusion: “Many lethal and sublethal effects of neonicotinoid insecticides on bees have been described in laboratory studies, however, no effects were observed in field studies with field-realistic dosages.” R.O.:”The Elephant in the Living Room “Let’s just put all scientific speculation aside, and look at the obvious—the survival and productivity of colonies actually exposed to neonics-treated crops. Not only is there no compelling evidence to date that exposure to seed-treated crops is causing harm to bees, but there are plenty of examples to the contrary, such as the thriving bee operations in the Corn Belt” R.O.: ” They do not appear to suffer from going into winter with a portion of their beebread consisting of pollen from seed-treated corn. No study (and there have been several) has been able to demonstrate that colonies suffer from foraging on seed-treated corn pollen, and some suggest that it was actually of benefit to them ” R.O.: ” My personal assessment of our state of knowledge on the neonics:The Good ” Bees and other pollinators appear to be able to thrive on the pollen and nectar of seed-treated plants ” R.O.: ” The Ugly ” Planting dust from sowing of corn. Although significant planting dust kills are rare …..” R.O.:” Conclusion “There is no conclusion. Neonics have only been on the market for about a decade, and we are learning how best to use and regulate them. There is plenty of current research and monitoring being done, and the world’s main regulatory agencies are currently carefully reviewing their registrations” R.O.:” Separating Fact from Fiction ” Up til now this article has been my best shot at an objective review of the scientific data and on-the-ground assessments of the neonicotinoid insecticides” R.O.: ” …….and I feel for beekeepers who have watched their hives fall apart—especially from pesticide issues. What I found, however, is that if one really does their homework, that the case against the neonics largely falls apart” R.O.: ” I have a vested interest in pesticides that are safer for humans, and the neonics fit that bill. In the case of bees, should seed treatment with clothianidin be banned, as PANNA is pushing, it’s not like farmers are all going to suddenly go organic—they will simply substitute other insecticides, which will then pollute the environment (and likely cause bee mortality) to a much greater degree–even some “organic” pesticides are more harmful to bees or other beneficials than some synthetics ” R.O.: “my concern is that the beekeeping community should be cautious about allowing itself to be used as a poster child for the “neonicotinoids are the cause of CCD and the extinction of the bee” NGO’s. Some of these same advocates could well be campaigning next year against the natural toxins, or grains of GMO pollen, that are found in some honeys! ” R.O.: ” The current focus on the neonicotinoids has drawn attention away from the incontrovertible damage caused to colonies every year by spray applications of other pesticides, as well as from important bee research which is finally elucidating the biological causes of colony mortality worldwide. To me, this misdirection of focus is a problem. Folks, all regulatory agencies worldwide are fully aware of the questions regarding the neonicotinoid insecticides ” R.O.: ” Let’s Redirect Our Energy “Instead of putting unwarranted lobbying effort against the single insecticide clothianidin, the bee industry would better benefit by going after (as Darren Cox says) “the low-hanging fruit”—the all-too-common bee kills due to spray applications of other pesticides” R.O.:”I do not for a moment doubt the earnestness of the petitioners, but I found that the EPA interpreted the research exactly as I have, and concur that there was simply not enough evidence (to date) that clothianidin poses a major threat to bees, beekeeping, or pollinators in general “

    • he is a lobbyist for the industry, no more, no less . a puppet and a big liar, a fool. he is still lobbying for them. dangerous man for our pollinators and our earth. he knows it. money talks.

    • The truth is that even if you put bees in a “clean” environment at this point the entire race of bees is under threat. Our agricultural system and all it entails- including bee pollination is inbred, sick. ALL of the bees are sick because the system that bred them is sick. Yes we have to stop using chemicals and GMOs. It’s a no brainer. You don’t have to have a 156 IQ to know that (but I do).

    • see #Neonics = 5000 times more toxic to bees than DDT. Help us to help our pollinators and see the Nazis and hydrogen cyanide adsorbed on or released from a carrier in the form of small tablets, used as an insecticidal fumigant and by the Nazis for killing concentration-camp prisoners and see Stumbling Stones in Germany etc… (dali48)

  16. The interview was very interesting and a good way for both people to express their views. It would be interesting to listen to actual scientists have a similar discussion. Good job!

  17. Blaise, it seems you missed the misspelled words by all the folks who agree with you … Do you by chance have anything to contribute BESIDES insults?

  18. What”s the main cause for all the dying colonies worldwide ? Lethal causes are most time poisening with for bees harmfull pesticides. There are a lot of movies you can see them trembling (tremors) and dying. (it”s acuut poisening). But sublethal is when they come in contact with to much poison nectar or pollen or water (they found in serious study”s pollen with 121 different “chemicals” in it) There are many different routes how a colony can come in contact with for bees dangerous pesticides. What happens depends on the kind of poison. They can lose the navigation to find back the hive. There is serious rechearch you can see how they lose their navigation because they put a chip on the back of the bees so they can follow them. There is many many many research done by many different researchers and they are doing at this moment research to find the cause. But the cause is pesticides (insecticides, fungicides and herbicides and of course combinations) What happens if a colony long enough comes in contact with pesticides is that their imuunsystem get supressed. And then they can die on many things, bacteria, virusses, parasites etc and combinations. Many scientist who have in one or another way connection with the chemical industry are all the time pointing at varroa destructor, diseases, lack of food etc. but don”t mention pesticides or come with results that in the fieldtrials there is not enough poison to kill the bees lethal or sublethal. And the chemical industry also does rechearch and want you to believe that the pesticides they sell are not dangerous for our pollinators. Of course not they want to sell their poison as much as possible for their profits. The most dangerous pesticides are the neonicotinoids (insecticides) and fipronil. And of course roundup (glyphosate)a lot used in the GMO-fields. So if a specific colony (or colony”s) are in bad condition because of other factors (to much varroa, to long bad weather, lack of good and enough food, diseases (bacteria, virusses etc ) what all causes stress and the imuunsystem is already supressed by these factors or combinations of factors the colony needs less and shorter time to collapse.If a colony is strong and in good condition with lots off good food and without many varroamites etc. with strong imuunsystems it will take a longer time to collapse if they come in contact with for bees harmfull pesticides. But if they come long enough in contact with enough for bees dangerous pesticides there imuunsystem also will break down and they will also become very sensitive to other factors (bacteria, viruses, varroamites etc) and sooner or later they also will collapse. Only a matter of time. A strong colony with a strong imuunsystem can beat a lot of diseases. So if you read research, hear scientist”s, politican”s, government”s, lobbyist”s, beekeepers, beekeeper-teachers, garden centres, movies, news, newspapers etc, etc who are telling you that it”s a combination from factors and not the for bees dangerous pesticides it”s all for putting you on the wrong track because in one or another way they are connected with the chemical industrys who making these for bees poison pesticides. Or some people are just confused because they hear so many different stories and don”t know anymore who to believe. But for the chemical industry it”s very good that the most people are confused because then they can still sell their pesticides.They only want to make as much money as they can in the most short time as they can. Now it”s time all the beekeepers (except a few who have connections with the chemical industry) are going to stand together against the for bees dangerous poisons if we want to save our bees and all the other for life on earth nesessary pollinators !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  19. Brian, here’s the problem with what you’re saying: We’re just not seeing the evidence in the real world. In Australia, for example, they’ve been using neonics for years like we have. But they do not have varroa there (yet) and they’re bees are much healthier overall. You may argue that varroa is not a problem unless the bees are exposed to neonics, but that’s not the case.
    Much is made of neonic-treated corn, which bees rarely work (GM or otherwise) due to its low-quality pollen. But virtually all canola is treated and beekeepers love the stuff. In Canada, GM/neonic-treated canola accounts for the majority of the honey crop. Beekeepers flock to those fields for pollination fees and boatloads of honey. Do you think they would do that if their bees were dying as a result? That is their livelihood, so I don’t think so!
    I talked to a commercial beekeeper in Tennesse last summer after a talk he gave on the pollination business. He actually laughed when I asked him about neonics! It’s the stuff they spray, he said. He just expects to lose a few hives every year due to insecticides sprayed during the bloom, but said the neonics are a non-issue.
    Beekeepers, like other folks, have wide-ranging views on pesticide use in general, whether outside or inside the hive. But ask any beekeeper who’s been doing this more than a year or two what is the number one threat to bees, and they’ll tell you it’s varroa.

    • Eugene, i have very good contacts with beekeepers around the world. A lot of them are professional with sometimes more as 1000 hives. From country to country they use different products to keep the mites under control. But they all do because they all know ,and sometimes have found out, that they have to do otherwise they are losing their colonies. (except the beekeepers who have good hsh/smr bees, they don”t treat or less).
      But the problem is that i know some very good beekeepers here, keeping bees longer as i do, so more as 30 years, with very good results, all with diploma”s beekeeping, controling the varroa of course, who had some years that they really were losing to many colonies, someone all his colonies, other nearly all. We have here in the Netherlands scientists from Wageningen who telling year after year after year (nearly long as we have varroa here) that if you treat the colonies the way you have to do it, their way, and you can download a brochure how to do it, you will not have many dead colonies in the winter. (One of them is a good friend from mr. R.Oliver i think). But every winter we have here in the Netherland”s high losses, especially in the winter. But there is a big difference from province to province., in the winter 2012 from 14,6 % (lowest, in one province) to 34,7% (highest , in another province). (average 20,8% , high in comparing to other european countries). The researchers (not the ones from Wageningen who still are advising the dutch governement and still calling for more and more research) who are doing this research allready for years and years, so long as we got here varroa ) they wanted to know why there is such a big difference between the provinces and they figured out, because they were questioning a lot of beekeepers (25% of the dutch beekeepers) also asking what they used against varroa, how many times, which mounths etc etc. And they found out that there was not a big, significant difference between the beekeepers how they did the varroa-treatment
      from province to province.(so there are other factors playing a more important role why so many colonies get lost every winter) They figured out that there was well a difference how the individual beekeepers did the varroa-treatment. And between the “good” and the “bad” treatment there was a difference in the winterlosses. About 4%.difference. So if all the beekeepers should treat against the varroa at the best way we know till now, and believe me, the research her in the Netherlands is very high on the best possible Varroa-control, we can win at least some % less winterlosses.
      The beekeepers who has said there was corn in the neighborhood of their hives had higher winterlosses but they are still working on this for more exact data.
      But never never forget that the neonicotinoids have also a very very bad effect on all the live in the soil like the earthworms etc etc. Every good farmer knows how important the living organism are in the soil.
      So it has not only a very terrible action on the honeybees, wild bees, bumblebees, butterflys etc but all the live in the soil is. And every time there are coming more scientific reports on the bad effects of neonicotinoids on the brains of fetuses and baby”s and children and humans.

    • “Brian, here’s the problem with what you’re saying: We’re just not seeing the evidence in the real world. In Australia, for example, they’ve been using neonics for years like we have. But they do not have varroa there (yet) and they’re bees are much healthier overall”. Sorry Eugene but most of Australia’s managed honeybee colony’s are not kept near agricultural areas, so this argument is flawed!

  20. I am dismayed by the mud slinging in this post-interview conversation. There are many large words appropriate to this conversation which are, of course, hard to pronounce and easily misspelled, especially given human abilities to fat finger a keyboard. My ability to pronounce neonicotinoid or imidacloprid or clothianidan, or for that matter to spell them from memory, is not a comment on my knowledge about this subject.
    MANY of the contributors in this discussion would do well to:
    1. Site your source study for the claims you make
    2. Note the author
    3. Note the funding source for the study

    Making a claim like:
    “ask any beekeeper who’s been doing this more than a year or two what is the number one threat to bees, and they’ll tell you it’s varroa.”
    is an opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions. However, it is not a fact. I am living evidence that this is not a fact because I’ve been keeping bees more than a year or two and I do not think varroa is my number one threat.

    Separating fact from opinion is especially wise when discussing controversial topics. We all apparently have this in common: we seek a healthy environment for ourselves, the bees and future generations. We hold different opinions about how to achieve that end, but that can be a good thing for finding “best” solutions.

    Our time and effort will be better invested if we stick to discussing the issues rather than picking on how others are able to pronounce or spell.

  21. I have been a beekeeper for a number of years and a member of the Bee L beekeeping forum of which Randy Oliver is a leading member and daily contributor. I do acknowledge Randy’s beekeeping expertise but for years have been amazed and confused as he constantly defends agrochemical companies. Every single time an issue about a pesticide arises he leaps to the defense of the pesticide dismissing all scientific evidence and demanding more proof. My response is where is he when these agrochemicals are given a conditional release based on short term, small scale testing carried out by companies hired by the agrochemical companies and whose financial existence depends on funding by these vary same agrochemical companies. He dismisses the sublethal effects of the agrochemicals because I assume they are sublethal and yet they do become inevitably lethal. There are a thousands of accepted studies on the negative effects of neonicotinoid pesticides on bees and non target invertebrates worldwide (a few http://strathconabeekeepers.blogspot.ca/…/the…) and thousands of cases where beekeepers have lost bee colonies and in some cases their livelihood. There are also studies now revealing the negative effects of neonicotinoids on adjacent ecosystems to agricultural areas in Canada (http://www.cbc.ca/…/pesticide-contaminating-prairie…). Why Randy Oliver remains in staunch defense of neonicotinoids I remain at a loss.

    • Well Bruce, this is what happens when you get too cozy with the industry. Maybe Randy should comeback in disguise, and tell us what he really thinks!

  22. Randy is doing a good job protecting the pesticide industry, he keeps his bees in a organic area and sees no problem with neonicotinoids on the ground. Maybe he is worried if Neonicotinoids were totally banned Bayer might not need him any longer to pass that Kool-Aid around.

  23. Randy Oliver is having a hard time defending these products because he doesn’t believe what he is saying himself. He is a Bayer representative disguised as a beekeeper and should be ignored.

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